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Non-Ni200 TC on Ni200 reference mods

Discussion in 'Temp Control' started by Snert, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    A lot of vapors I know have gotten heavy into TC lately, and that's a good thing... the "lately" part anyway. These days a number of US and Chinese chip manufacturers have jumped on the TC bandwagon and are supplying units that will allow TC vaping with a large variety of different wires. It even looks like the Hohmtech may have worked out some kind of an "anti-burn" technology for Kanthal. I will try that when I can.

    However, back in the "old days" all we had for TC was the DNA 40 and Ni200 wire. A number of mod manufacturers used the DNA 40 in their mods. Evolv hasn't been in the business of making mods and someone has to use their chips. It gave modders a built-to-mod 40w (buck and boost) chipset that could do TC, though I doubt the TC aspect was a major focus for most of the modders.

    Ni200 TC vaping was a pain in the ass for me. The wire is soft and difficult to work with. If you had any kind of nickel allergy, you were SOL. It had other potentially nasty side effects when used in the way vapors traditionally used Kanthal (though truthfully, so do the other TC wires and we're actually not 100% "sure" about Kanthal). There was a definite learning curve and Evolv had all sorts of issues with the DNA 40 electronics that, IMO, plagued them until the DNA 200 was released. The DNA 200 is in now in widespread use with the DNA 75 on the immediate horizon. But that still leaves a TON of DNA 40 based mods already in circulation and the chip is still being used in new mods (like the Tesseract, the Fernweh and some of the lower powered Lost Vape units).

    So what to do. Consign them to being Kanthal only mods? A lot of folks did, but some weren't satisfied with that and figured out how to use other wires on DNA 40 mods by offsetting the temperature. Out of that effort, a really neat feature on the Steam Engine Wire Wizard was born.

    http://www.steam-engine.org/wirewiz.asp

    If you type in the properties of a non-Ni200 TC build and check the "Equivalent" option of the "Temperature Control results" section of the wizard you'll find suggested settings to run your non-Ni200 builds on a "Nickel Reference" mod (i.e. any mod built with a DNA 40). I've played with this feature on the site off and on since it came into being and have "learned stuff".

    I've invested heavily in GDNAs. I really like regulated squonkers and for a long period of time, that was about your only real option. Since the advances in TC electronics, I find my GNDAs falling out of use and I just don't squonk like I used to. I'll take a good dripper (or BF converted dripper) over a tank any day! So, I'm join others on the quest to make TC work with non-Ni200 wire in a "Nickel Referece" mod. I thought I'd share my experiences in this thread (just in case anyone gives a sh*t :p).
     
    #1 Snert, Apr 30, 2016
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  2. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    Here's a quick summation of my experiences before today.
    1) Spaced coils, spaced coils, spaced coils!
    2) Long legs (like you'd see on a horizontal Veritas build) just don't work. They're gonna glow and that's just an invitation to nastiness in your lungs.
    3) TC works on change in resistance in your wire. Ni200 has a very steep curve. Alternative wires (like Ti, SS, etc) have shallower curves. The shallower the curve, the less likely you're gonna be able to use a particular wire on a Nickel Reference mod.

    I've tried Ti in a Veritas and that's a no go (see #2 above). I've tried SS in both a Veritas and a Velocity clone. Didn't work there either (see #2 and #3 above). The resistance curve for SS 316L is just too shallow. According to the wire wizard, you'd need something like a -250° F offset to make the SS builds I was making viable. At a starting point of 420°, well, the DNA 40 just don't go that low!

    So at this point the Vertias (my favorite flavor dripper EVER) is out. The Velocity clone is nice in that it has a squonk conversion, but that's out too (for mr)cause it makes a REALLY big mess when you over-squonk. The Veritas completely spoiled me In that respect. There were a number of other candidate RDAs (like the Derringer and the Nuppin) that just didn't trip my trigger, so when I found the NarDa (clone in this case) I decided I'd give it a go again.

    Thus far I would call it a "qualified success". I managed to make and install a spaced 6.5 wrap 2.5mm Ti coil ohming out at 0.57Ω. Since the NarClone doesn't come with a squonk pin (like the legit does) and I haven't ordered any potential replacements, I'm using it on an old legit DNA 40 Hana I still have.

    Here's a pic I made with it firing at the Steam Engine Wire Wizard recommended temperature of 330° F (based on a 420° F starting point).

    [​IMG]

    As you can see, it's rather pathetic. That's why I call the wire wizards Equivalent a "recommendation". This process is a lot like TC in general... guessing!

    I wound up adjusting up to 370° F, roughly equivalent to 480° F (according to the Wire Wizard) which is warmer than I usually run. I'm not hanging all of that on the build. This is a new atty I've never done any other kind of TC with and, of course, I've used a juice I don't know. I've had no issue with the mod reverting to power mode thus far and no dry hits.

    Gonna vape it like this for a bit while I track down the FDV squonk pins. I'll share more later.
     
    #2 Snert, Apr 30, 2016
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  3. trlrtrash13

    trlrtrash13 The trash of thy trailer.
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    I don't have the patience to play this hard with the wires and atties. When I build something I want to vape it and for it to vape great right away. That's probably why I've stuck with Kanthal.

    From my experience, Ni200 is OK for vaping, and SS wire is pretty much the same as Kanthal for me. I never built with ti wire but I had a pre-built head for a tank and I didn't like it at all. It was very weak, very cool, and the flavor seemed muted.
     
  4. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    I just get bored easily...

    [​IMG]
    SQUIRREL!!!

    I've ordered the FDV squonk pins. Now the challenge of grinding it to the right length with no bench grinder. :p
     
  5. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    I discovered Live Photos on my new iPad.

    [​IMG]

    And an app that will make an animated gif out of 'em. :p

    This is a quick sample of the Ti coil I discussed above. I tuned it up to a Nickel equivalent temperature of ~480° F. A lot less... wispy... than it was at ~420° F equivalent.

    Now, it's nothing to write home about as far as pics go but then TC is kicking in and constraining the vapor output. Get a little airflow going and it's quite nice.
     
  6. Mad Scientist

    Mad Scientist The Original Crew
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    I find this very interesting, Hmm you could not get the Veritas to work in TC? That was one of the first I got working. I was using it on the Snow Wolf which only has a Ni program. I built it with a 26 Ga. 5/6 wrap 2 mm Ti sleeper and ran it at 380 f @ 30 watts and was a great vape. Never really relied on the steam engine program, i used it once to find a base setting for another Atty, But generally go with my taste instead of numbers.

    The resistance curve for SS is far shallower that Ti.
     
  7. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    The only build I ever really learned on the Veritas was a single horizontal coil. You get a really long positive coil leg that, despite my best efforts, I couldn't keep from glowing. Tried Ni200 and Ti and finally gave up. Just when I'd think I had it, I'd get a funny flavor, pull the top cap and that positive leg would be glowing red.

    Would you to have a pic of that build around anywhere? Really wanna get back to using the GDNAs, but have really developed a taste for TC.
     
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  8. Mad Scientist

    Mad Scientist The Original Crew
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    find your self an old bike innertube and cut two square pieces of it, clamp the deck between the two pieces of rubber in a bench vise and use a hand file to take that pin down to your desired length. Worked for me:)
     
    #8 Mad Scientist, May 1, 2016
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
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  9. Mad Scientist

    Mad Scientist The Original Crew
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    I think I do, let me look. Perhaps the positive legs on my dual sleeper build are less likely to cause trouble?, Not sure as to why as i have built singles before on the Veritas and the positive lead length is about the same. Now mind you that building a 26 Ga. single wire Ti dual sleeper in the Veritas will take a rather large degree of patience to get right.

    Just re read your post...i would be really concerned using Ti wire and the positive leg is glowing...It shouldn't get that hot as it will produce Titanium Dioxide....


    Wow man, if you like the Veritas with a single coil, You should really try it with two:) And the neat thing I have learned about using it like that is you have a large degree of control of the Vape by how far apart or close together that you space the coils ...

    uploading the pic now for you
     
    #9 Mad Scientist, May 1, 2016
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  10. Mad Scientist

    Mad Scientist The Original Crew
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    ok, here you go @Snert...this build worked flawlessly:)
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    That looks nice! I've replaced the top nuts on mine with what you have, but I still have the stock negative screws. What did you use for substitutes?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  12. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    That's exactly why I abandoned ship and went back to Kanthal. That was in the really early stages of using TC for me. Since I've gotten used to it on my Stout/Prodigy combinations, I really wanna make it work on the GDNAs.

    If I can't make it work on the Veritas, I'll go with the NarClone. Been very consistent and performing well as a dripper on the Hana.
     
  13. Mad Scientist

    Mad Scientist The Original Crew
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    Thank you @Snert :)

    yes you need to run the positive double nutted to avoid the single nut from backing off due to the thermal action.for those that want to know they are the replacement nuts for the AGA T2.

    Ok, and the hex head screws I used in it are from the Vulcan ( I never really liked that Attys performance:( ) as they have the same thread as the ground screws in the Veritas. I have looked around for replacements for those ground screws in the Veritas and found that they are of a proprietary size and are not available.
     
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  14. Mad Scientist

    Mad Scientist The Original Crew
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    Don't worry man, You can get it working:0 And besides it's gonna be damn hard to replicate the performance you get from the Veritas in any other atty.
     
  15. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    Yanki and I put together an order for the AGA T2 nuts together months ago. Just noticed the difference on the neg screws and was curious.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  16. Snert

    Snert Administrator
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    TOTALLY agree with that!
     
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  17. Mad Scientist

    Mad Scientist The Original Crew
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    No problem, they tighten down rock solid with no issues. you will be able to put a build in that in either 24 or 26 Ga Ti. I don't think 22 will fit in it.
     
  18. Yankifenix

    Yankifenix The Original Crew
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    I think I still have my Vulcan laying around somewhere at the house. If I find it tonight @Snert will have new screws tomorrow.
     
  19. Mad Scientist

    Mad Scientist The Original Crew
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    Did you find it?
     
  20. Yankifenix

    Yankifenix The Original Crew
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    Still searching for it. I got one more place to look tonight
     

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